An environment of conflict

[Suff]

Leads to acts of conflict. Yes Jo Cox may have been murdered by a borderline lunatic, but I strongly blame those who have chosen to darkly manipulate the people rather than openly debate the issue.

My heart goes out to her widower and especially to her two children who are going to have to live through this traumatic time without the love and care of their mother.

Even worse, a whole load of politicians are going to be faced with Hobsons choice. They can't ignore it and to mention it is to "use" it to their benefit. Which is wholly abhorrent, but you can bet it's going to happen.

It doesn't change how I feel about the whole debate but it does change how I feel about those who have positioned themselves to win the debate but are too inarticulate to do it with honour.

Let use take one instance. Michael Gove is challenged by a Scientist that the EU "provides" funding to UK scientists by some magic of "giving them EU money".

What does Gove do? He just keeps telling him that he is wrong and that his figures don't add up.

What could he have done?

He could have invited the Physicist to give an accurate scientific definition of a positive contribution. Which, simply, is that once all the additions and subtractions are done, that the side which comes out with less, from it's start position, has benefitted the other side with a net contribution.

He could then have led him through the fact which nobody denies. That the UK is a net contributor to the EU. Then he could have challenged him to the fact that his assertion is only because he does not trust the UK government to retain that "EU funding" and pay for it with the money that comes back from the EU.

In short that the Physicist had just lied to everyone because he's scared that the government won't be as free with UK money as the EU is.

Instead it turned into a child's argument. Is, isn't, is, isn't.

Is it any wonder that tempers flare? That violence erupts.

Even I, who have every sympathy with Jo's children, am using her death to make a point. But I hope that she would agree. The point needs to be made. Act like sensible, reasoning, adults and keep the tempers down. Then perhaps we can avoid more tragedy.

[Aggers]

Well put, Suff.

Quite frankly, I have been disgusted at the way politicians, both those for and those against Brexit,
have expressed their advice on which way we should vote. Their mentality can be likened to that of
children in a school playground, and all that their behaviour has achieved is to generate hatred and
loathing of politicians in general. They are playing a dangerous game.

[cromwell]

The problem has been growing for some time and its root cause is that we have a separate political class who in the main, do not reflect the views of the people. There is a massive disconnect between the two.

As for the murder, no one deserves to be shot down like a dog in the street. Jo Cox had two children aged five and three, how do you explain to them that mummy isn't coming home again, ever?

I do wonder how this mentally ill person got a gun? It clearly wasn't a "musket" as some people have described, as they fire single shots and three shots were fired.
So best guesses.
1. An old British army gun of WW1 or WW2 vintage that was brought home by a relative, with some ammunition.
2. A gun bought on the black market, but I wouldn't think he'd have the money.
3. An "obsolete calibre" pistol that he has managed to rig some ammunition up for.
4. A deactivated pistol that he has reactivated, ditto the ammunition.
(or an old, unregistered shotgun maybe)

Unfortunately Suff, Jo Cox's death is already being politicised and will be used in the referendum debate. It is low, but that's politicians for you.

[Aggers]

I think it is so sad that this poor woman was so brutally murdered, possibly because the murderer's mind
had been seriously disturbed by the rhetoric of certain politicians - a consequence I can well understand.

My feeling regarding certain politicians have certainly changed over recent weeks.

[cromwell]

The thing is Aggers, both sides have used overblown, inflammatory rhetoric. Cameron has mentioned "Genocide" if we leave the EU, the other side have used misleading figures on NHS spending.

All we have had is lies, exaggerations and dire predictions. If you are a mentally unstable person you may well react badly to this constant bombardment of threats, and this man did.

[Workingman]

Nobody yet knows why poor Jo Cox was so brutally murdered by a mentally ill man, so to my mind it is a bit previous to be blaming what has been said by both sides in the Referendum campaign. It all smacks of points scoring to me: sorry gents, but that's how I see this.

[TheOstrich]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -mp-jo-cox

...... and the prime minister, David Cameron, who insisted society must redouble its efforts to embrace the values of tolerance and community that the late MP triumphed.

It is all very well Cameron making statements like this, but it should also be a wake-up call to the politicians to start listening to the people they represent, not only at local but also at national level. I have been appalled by some MPs, mainly on the Remain side of the referendum, who have adopted the attitude that their constituents should heed their MP's views and then vote in accordance with them. Sorry, but we are not forelock-tugging serfs.

If politicians do not start to genuinely listen to their constituents, then the doom-mongers amongst us who have muttered on about a descent into anarchy or civil war in this country, might be ultimately proved all too right .....

There are two sides in any argument, not just one. HS2 and green belt development are only two examples of the railroading that goes on even now. Merkel's unbending insistence that there will be no revisiting of the freedom of movement rules in the EU is another. The whole system of political interaction in this country needs looking at.

Just my 2c worth ....

[Aggers]

Nobody yet knows why poor Jo Cox was so brutally murdered by a mentally ill man, so to my mind it is a bit previous to be blaming what has been said by both sides in the Referendum campaign. It all smacks of points scoring to me: sorry gents, but that's how I see this.

In this regard, I must beg to differ.

[Suff]

Nobody yet knows why poor Jo Cox was so brutally murdered by a mentally ill man, so to my mind it is a bit previous to be blaming what has been said by both sides in the Referendum campaign. It all smacks of points scoring to me: sorry gents, but that's how I see this.

A mentally unstable person affiliated to a far right wing South African group kills a left wing MP during an acrimonious referendum where a lot of very personal and very inflammatory things are being said.

I don't think we need a Chilcot report to have a reasonably good idea what happened here and I blame those who can't have a debate and fall back on belligerence. I'm not points scoring I'm saying "up your game and do your job, get this discussion out of the gutter".

I would rather every single person who wants the UK in the EU goes to the polls, has their say and we remain in the EU before a single hair was harmed on the head of a woman like Jo Cox.

I don't see that as points scoring...

[Suff]

Something had to be said and it has been said well.

Not only that it appears I'm working on out of date stats (probably circa 2014). It appears that we now export 42% of our good to the EU and if you look at the chart, that is forecast to drop into the 30's within six years.

But the most telling thing that he says is this...

So, I’m voting Brexit because, economically speaking, the EU isn’t where it’s at

Simply put, the cost of the legislation and the intrusion into our daily lives is not worth the benefits we get and if we left our imports would come from outside the EU more and more and outside the EU is cheaper than inside it.

Meanwhile, as he states, those countries who do the 60bn of net trade with the UK will lobby to ensure that we don't tariff block them. The only way that will happen is if we are not tariff blocked to the EU.

This is what our MP's should be debating. Not the slanging match which is going on.