First move to oust May?

[TheOstrich]

Well, whilst accepting your right to be amused, Suff, I'm anything but amused. Why? Because we have been royally let down by our politicians who have spent the last two years doing everything in their power to thwart a democratic first past the post vote by the people. I'm spitting so many feathers, I can fill both a quilt and a duvet.

The Tory backbenchers gave May a rapturous reception at the 1922 committee meeting. Says it all really. They know they are on a winner, the EU deal will be so watered down, it will be meaningless. I'll tell you this, the last thing we'll now get is a second vote / referendum on May's "deal" - because they won't want to run the risk of the people saying "No". I should think Gina Miller et al are being quietly told to button it.

One of the EU bigwigs tweeted yesterday over Boris's departure that there may hopefully still be a way for the UK to remain. As WM has so often said, the EU has all the cards - their best situation is to agree a watered down deal that leaves us a vassall state, as Jacob Rees-Mogg has opined. Their worst scenario is that we ask to reverse Article 50 and stay in.

Peter Bone, the Leave MP, said in the Commons yesterday that his community activists were afraid to go out on the streets at the weekend fearing they'd get a rough ride from Brexiteers who feel betrayed. Rightly so. Gawd help the next Tory to turn up on my doorstep!

Nigel Farage has indicated he might apply (for a 4th time) for the UKIP leadership at their next election, March 2019. I hope he does. The Conservatives deserve the Mother of all Kickings in the next General Election, and I'm so p*ssed off, I've even got to the point where don't care if Corbyn gets in now ....

[Suff]

All extremely true Ossie.

However, for you and many others, the consolation is that we WILL be OUT.

Whatever deal we do in the next few months can be undone, unilaterally, by the UK and we can move on. If anyone has the slightest doubt about that, then they need to go and have a look at the US and what Trump is doing.

No matter how bad the initial deal, the UK will be a fully sovereign Nation again. With that goes the ability to rescind any deal made with the EU.

As the dust settles and time goes on, Brexiters will realise that the first and very biggest, hurdle, will be over. Namely getting out. All the others are tiny in comparison. They can also console themselves with the fact that had we Remained for a few more decades, the chances of us leaving, once we had accepted the Euro (disbelieve me if you want), would have been less than nil.

People still don't get it. My BIL was saying, just yesterday, that he believed we would be able to re-join the EU and stay out of Schengen.

And they talk about Brexiteer pipe dreams.

Once we are out, the reality of what the EU is will become more and more clear. Then our mulish and truculent UK manner will come to the fore and give us what the spineless weaklings were unable to give us this time round. Some clear separation.

Think it through. Be amused. Don't spit feathers; honestly did you really expect them to actually do what we told them to do? At least we get out. The rest, as they say, is in OUR hands. All we have to do is vote for it.

Just think back to where we were 2 years ago. We had aspirations, we wanted something that has been a Long time in the making, we wanted to rectify that vote in the 70's. We were willing to accept defeat, all over again. Did we really expect, having got our vote, that the establishment was going to make it easy?

In many ways, had May put a Remainer in charge of exiting the EU, I would have been much less happy. But with May putting a Brexiteer in charge and insisting that we go through with leaving, I am much, much, happier. Boris and Davis resigning left her in the impossible position of being totally unable to go back on her word of leaving the EU. She has gone back on a bad deal being worse than a hard Brexit. However she cannot go back on Brexit means Brexit. Correctly translated that means the UK will Exit the EU, as we voted for and that is non negotiable in any way.

Remember the difference. In the EU, the UK is a Subject Member State. Outside the EU the UK is a Nation which has Agreed to bind itself into a Trade Deal. The two positions are completely and utterly different. It is like the difference between looking out from Prison at the world outside, which you are only allowed to interact with everyone else under their rules and looking out from your garden at the world you have blocked off with your fences and hedges.

Patience. We're not going back because the EU won't give us the conditions we negotiated from the inside. We have been blocking the EU for over 16 years (the EU came into being on the 10th December 1991, ratification is, essentially, irrelevant), they're not going to go back to having the UK in the EU, blocking them again, if they can avoid it.

There needs to be another survey. To tell us how many people want the UK in the EU, the Euro, in Schengen and fully compliant to ALL EU directives. If we got more than 25% I'd be surprised. Even Remainers don't want the real EU, they only want what we twisted it to be for the UK.

Finally, just remember. The EU has already and repeatedly, rejected what May is selling to the UK...….

[Kaz]

You carry on Suff, enjoy! The rest of us will just have to put up with the mess and division that this whole debacle is causing.

[Suff]

You carry on Suff, enjoy! The rest of us will just have to put up with the mess and division that this whole debacle is causing.

I was willing to put up with a lot worse than that. The difference is that the UK trying to make my life easier and, in the process, making the life for people in the UK harder, yet that does not please me in general.

When A50 was triggered by May, the relationship between the UK and the EU altered fundamentally and forever. I said it at that time and I will continue to say it. A50 is an EU article not a UK article. Once we triggered it, we became subject to EU decisions on how it would end.

I shouldn't know why people just don't get it but I do. It is because people in the UK just don't understand the EU and that is the biggest reason why we need to leave.

If you understand what I wrote above, then you also understand that Hard Brexit is the only competence the UK has and anything more than that is at the behest of the EU, should they feel it is in their interest that they do so.

That should ALWAYS have been our default position and it would have worked perfectly because the EU simply cannot afford Hard Brexit.

The fact that Remainers did not understand this is obvious because they never understood the EU anyway. The fact that they took their complete misunderstanding of the EU and tried to get something they were never going to get, damaging the UK on the way? I choose to laugh.

It is I who should be mad, frustrated, raging at the mess and the debacle the remainers have made of Brexit.

I choose to be amused.

Boris was right. Remainers are willing to be a colony of the EU, anything, to try and cling to something which went the day May triggered A50.

What is not to laugh at? I'm a Bexiteer, mad to damage the UK to get what I want. The fact that Remainers have damaged the UK more than I ever could is hilarious.

Why? Because, over time, we will be in the position Trump is in now. You want to sell me stuff and me to pay for your security? Think again! Because that will be our Right and our Competence.

I requested nothing more and I got it.

[Workingman]

More straw men and patronising bollocks.

So, Remainers know nothing about the EU and how it works and were "sucked in" to voting for the status quo. Whereas Levers all have 1st classs degrees in EU Studies and know how all the minutiae work. They had a plan with every t crossed and i dotted and with a clear-as-day roadmap; and it was all published in full long before the referendum.

Leavers, you see, used their brains and superioir knowledge of things EU to vote for a plan while us Remainers voted for a dream.

It is suddenly all so clear - or chuffin' not.

[Suff]

More straw men and patronising bollocks.

So, Remainers know nothing about the EU and how it works and were "sucked in" to voting for the status quo. Whereas Levers all have 1st classs degrees in EU Studies and know how all the minutiae work. They had a plan with every t crossed and i dotted and with a clear-as-day roadmap; and it was all published in full long before the referendum.

Leavers, you see, used their brains and superioir knowledge of things EU to vote for a plan while us Remainers voted for a dream.

It is suddenly all so clear - or chuffin' not.

Patronising? You know perfectly well that You are not typical of someone who wanted to remain and I am not typical of someone who wanted to Leave. The vast majority fall in the middle ground.

Sucked into? You forget! Brow Beaten and threatened into Remain is more like it. I have never seen a heavier rhetoric used in any vote outside of an absolute dictatorship.

Leavers knew nothing except that they would get their sovereignty back. That, for the vast majority of Leavers, was enough. Anything else was a bonus.

It is the Remainers who fully believe that Leavers voted for a sum on the side of a bus and that, to be honest, is the most patronising thing I have ever heard. It is also demeaning and downright insulting.

As for Leavers using their brains? They voted for an ideal.

Remainers?

They voted mostly out of fear.

That is the black and white I see. Now you tell me who I'm supposed to respect.

Since I can't respect I laugh. It's funny.

[medsec222]

I agree that most leavers voted because they wanted their sovereignty back. The sum on the back of a bus was totally irrelevant - nice thought that there might be more money for the NHS, but I doubt it swung the vote. I did read quite a few comments at the time about the leave voters being old and uneducated. How patronising is that.

[jenniren]

Leavers knew nothing except that they would get their sovereignty back. That, for the vast majority of Leavers, was enough. Anything else was a bonus.
It is the Remainers who fully believe that Leavers voted for a sum on the side of a bus and that, to be honest, is the most patronising thing I have ever heard. It is also demeaning and downright insulting.
As for Leavers using their brains? They voted for an ideal.

Spot on Suff.

[Workingman]

Sovereignty, eh? What sovereignty did we lose? Our parliament still rules over civil and criminal law, welfare, the NHS, education, military and defence, policing and income tax and all the othere internal decisions made. Where we might have lost "some" sovereigty is with trade rules, laws and specs, but there is not a trading nation on earth who has full sovereignty over trade. In bilateral arrangements there are agreed rules. There will also be rules under EEA or EFTA.... and there will be a whole raft of rules under WTO.

With the £350m on the side of the bus I have to remind everyone that it was not Remain who put it there it was Leave. Leading lights in Leave then promoted it as something tangible and possible. Remain did nothing more than take the piss out of it for the joke it was.

And then there is the big one: immigration. It was the main thrust of UKIP and it became the main thrust of Leave, though that is now vehemently and totally unconvincingly denied by Brexiteers. It is a shame because immigration has been, and still is, a concern for lots of people on all sides. It is not the racist, xenophobic anti-immigration as cried by the media. It is an understandable fear the the UK is full up and that people and its infrastructure are under strain and not willing or able to take any more. This is one of those problems that will not go away after Brexit.

So Leavers used their brains and voted for an ideal, did they? Shame that they weren't bright enough to realise that the ideal could not be delivered.

[cromwell]

If it couldn't be delivered Frank, why was it offered?