Workingman wrote:Sovereignty, eh? What sovereignty did we lose? Our parliament still rules over civil and criminal law, welfare, the NHS, education, military and defence, policing and income tax and all the othere internal decisions made.
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So Leavers used their brains and voted for an ideal, did they? Shame that they weren't bright enough to realise that the ideal could not be delivered.
Workingman wrote:Sovereignty, eh? What sovereignty did we lose? Our parliament still rules over civil and criminal law, welfare, the NHS, education, military and defence, policing and income tax and all the othere internal decisions made.
Yes that's the one. Of course we rule over our civil and criminal law. Tell that to the Poles. What? Nobody reads the EU news in remain camp? Surprise me some more. Poland is already being sanctioned because their (supposedly sovereign), parliament decided to update their laws, get rid of the quasi communist decisions taken by those who had been deep in the communist era and get rid of those who grew up in communism from the top courts so they could get decisions based on the reality of a democratic state.
The EU response? Sanctions, threats (soon to be actions), to stop Poland from voting in the European Council and the Council of ministers, probably followed by the suspension of polish MEP's in the EU parliament. In short, binding Poland into the Union without the democratic benefits of the Union whilst still being a lucrative market to sell goods to (paid for by EU subsidies). Why do the Poles not just have a referendum and leave? Money, bucketloads of it, heading their way.
So don't tell me we're in control of our laws, because if the EU rules against the UK government then the EU ruling stands.
If you are not in control of your laws, you are not Sovereign. Welfare? NHS? Education? What we do with our military in peace time? Misdirection, just as you say I am doing. To be sovereign you need to be fully empowered to take decisions (any decision) and make it stick. Just ask Scots who want independence, they'll tell you exactly what it is.
As for not being able to deliver Brexit?
What is Brexit? It is the UK leaving the EU. Nothing more, nothing less. Any idiot can deliver that. All they need to do is trigger A50 and refuse to talk to the EU for 2 years. Job done. Brexit is delivered.
Ah, but you mean "sensible bexit", where everyone goes singing into the sunset with trade intact and no pain and the EU recognise that they can no longer tell the UK what to do. Well of course that could not, ever, be delivered. Not because the Leave campaign were a bunch of losers who had no clue what they were doing, but because the EU would have to "give" us that and the 27 self serving, back stabbing, ingrates in that cabal would never give the UK the steam off their excrement if they could possibly avoid it.
The EEC and the EU was explicitly set up for the original 5 to make the cream of anything they did. It was set up to block inwards trade whilst allowing, almost, frictionless trade internally. In short a competitor to the US and the USSR without the politics (originally). A50? It was a sop to Denmark to get the Constitution through and was kept in the Lisbon Treaty for the same reason. Otherwise it would have been Hotel California all the way. Because anything else would be hugely damaging to the original 5.
Of course Nirvana could not be delivered. We'd have to have crawled and begged and been spat in the face for our effort. That is not how the British I remember act. The British I remember would stand up, tell them to go have sex with themselves and walk off head held high.
The EU has created a generation of spineless weaklings in the UK just as it has created a generation of spineless weaklings all over the EU, except for the new entrants of the former Eastern Europe. That is what the EU needs. It does not want strong independent states, it needs weak,pliable,states.
Brexit, after I am gone, will be the defining moment for the UK in this century. As the decades unfold, post Brexit, the EU will become visible for all that it is. From the outside of the prison walls it will not look so good as from the inside.
